Episode 2 Fair Housing Education
Episode 2 of our complimentary Fair Housing educational sessions. In this session, we cover the following questions.
- What is sexual harassment in housing?
- Can being too friendly get you in trouble?
- How do you find a balance?
- What are some best practices to prevent sexual harassment claims?
Editor’s note: We had some technical difficulties during the recording of this session. We apologize for some of the audio issues.
If you would like a summary version of this fair housing education session please review our blog post: Sexual Harassment Claims – Best Practices For Compliance.
Sexual Harassment and Fair Housing Video Transcript
Jonathan: I want to welcome with me today is Kathi, she’s a partner in the law firm of Williams and Edelstein and she provides preventative representation for the housing industry in all civil rights matters. Kathleen is a co-founder and partner in the Fair Housing Institute which is a full-service training and consulting firm. We would like to welcome Kathi, welcome to episode number two. Are you excited?
Kathi: Yeah I am Jonathan. This is an important topic so I think it’s very timely now that I looked at the news this morning that we talk about it again.
Jonathan: Absolutely yeah. Seems to be one of the bigger topics overall. The last session we got into animals, and that’s been on the news but sexual harassment has definitely been another major headline so that’s where we’re going to be. You deal with this each and every day so your insight is going to be really valuable for all of us today. What we’d like to talk about is what sexual harassment looks like. How do we understand in relation to how is it? What are some best practices? How can we avoid harassment claims, and towards the end, when you and I were preparing and I’m really interested in hearing your feedback and your take on other types of harassment that are illegal, and how it relates to a protected category. We’ve got a great session today and we look forward to hearing some feedback from some of our audience.
Jonathan: To get us going everyone, we have prepared for you a little scenario to kind of give you a backdrop on some of the fabulous things that Kathi is going to share with us today.
Fair Housing and Sexual Harassment Scenario
Jane: I can’t believe what Lucy just told me. I have to talk to our property manager. Hello Lisa. I just heard something from a friend of mine who I can’t name. All I can say is that Tim our maintenance guy has another side to him. My friend told me that Tim walked by her yesterday and patted her on the rear and said, “Nice butt.”
Lisa: Wow. I would never have thought that he’d do something like that.
Jane: I know. I’m shocked. He has been here for such a long time.
Lisa: Is your friend a resident? Would you mind sharing her name with me?
Jane: I don’t think I can do that. My friend doesn’t want to get Tim in trouble and wants to just let it go.
Lisa: Okay, well thanks for telling me. We’ll just keep it between you and me.
Jonathan: Kathi, what’s your take on our little video?
Kathi: Well I would say just like the people in our video, sometimes this is a pretty awkward conversation to have with anybody, including the employees that work for housing providers. Contrary to our video, this is not a topic that we should avoid or keep confidential because it has such legal ramifications. Now, while I’m talking about legal, you out there who are not aware, we are doing this training video for educational purposes only. This is not legal advice. I am an attorney, but I can’t provide legal advice to hundreds of people out there, some of whom I probably know and some of whom I don’t. So just be aware. Don’t count on what I tell you today as legal advice. You need to talk to your own lawyers if and when you have a need to.
Kathi: But in the meantime, let’s talk about how to handle these claims and how to avoid them. We want to believe that this is obvious, and everyone knows how to behave themselves at work. So we want to believe that the training on sexual harassment isn’t really necessary. But we only have to turn on the news or computers to realize that is not the case. This topic is as relevant today as it is ever been, and because it happens to be one of the most difficult, embarrassing, and extremely expensive fair housing and legal violations it is really important that we talk about, and make sure we’re clear on what it is, and what it isn’t, and maybe how to avoid it. You know-
Jonathan: This is one of those things, Kathi, I hope you don’t mind me interjecting. Is this one of those things that you see that is a once in a while case, or is it a very common challenge that housing providers are facing?
Kathi: I think it’s more common than any of us would really like to think. I have, in my career, had a number of fair housing cases that the topic was sexual harassment. One of the most difficult types of cases that I’ve ever dealt with, and I read the case law books regularly and it is shocking sometimes the cases that I find in those about situations with sexual harassment. Because of that fact, the Department of Justice and HUD has put together a task force, where they are going around the country, investigating claims of sexual harassment. If the investigation shows that it is likely that it occurred, they are prosecuting these cases vehemently. So far, both the awards in the court cases and the settlement amounts of damages have been huge. So this is a costly violation and one we don’t want to get involved with.
Best Practice #1 Don’t Avoid the Problem
Jonathan: Right. So what would you recommend is the number one best practice of everyone taking notes? What do people need to be paying attention to?
Kathi: So like we started out, I want to keep emphasizing don’t avoid this one. I get it that it’s awkward, I get it that it’s difficult, but don’t avoid it. Just like any other housing management practice, it’s important an employee be trained so that they can effectively address any claim if it arises, and avoid more serious claims. Those usually come from the fact that the initial claims were ignored. I’m going to give you lots of topics today in this webinar that can be used to do training in individual properties or individual companies.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. Great one. Great point. Sometimes the training at times can get shoved under the rug a little bit, but it will cost us if we don’t have something in place and just because of the topic, it needs to be addressed. We’ve got to have the courage to be able to fix it, because it’s real.
Jonathan: If you could help us out, talking to people, there’s sometimes a little bit of confusion when it comes to sexual harassment in an office environment versus what we deal with when it comes to fair housing. Can you give us a little bit tighter definition of harassment and how it relates to housing?
Kathi: Sure. In housing, just like employment, we have two different definitions or types of sexual harassment. The first one, which is maybe the most severe, is what we call quid pro quo. That means you give me something, I give you something. This is the type of behavior where we have demands for sex with the idea that you give me what I want, meaning, for instance, some kind of sexual behavior, and in return I’ll allow you to live in your apartment or I’ll make it easier for you to live in your apartment by receiving extra benefits for services. So that’s the first type of sexual harassment.
Kathi: The second type is what we call a hostile environment, and that is maybe a more common type of sexual harassment, and also a little bit more general type of harassment. This is conduct based on statements, gestures, pictures, text messages that create an environment where a resident feels unsafe to live there, and doesn’t feel comfortable continuing to live in their home.
Jonathan: Okay. When you think of how people can connect the dots, so to speak, how does that kind of lead over into fair housing violation? Is that a fair question?
Kathi: Sure. The thing about when these events happen, for instance in the beginning with our scenario with the maintenance employee kind of groping one of the residents, it’s hard to know whether that would be quid pro quo or environment. For sure it would be a harassing environment because that resident is going to be pretty uncomfortable walking in the hall in case she might pass the maintenance employee again. A couple of things, just general points about thinking about what activities or what behavior may cause a violation under the fair housing act. Be aware that if a person… if a resident, for instance, acquiesces in a demand for sex but does so because, even though maybe she cooperates it wasn’t willing, and in that case, there’s still a violation. Usually, those kind of cases are not going to happen with a maintenance employee. That’s usually going to happen with, for instance, a property manager or a supervisor. In that case, even though there is sexual contact, that doesn’t mean the person might still be the victim of sexual harassment, and still have a case against the property.
Kathi: Another just general statement that I always like to make is beware that sexual harassment can occur, even if one person is not coming onto another person. Even if they’re not trying to get them in a sexual relationship. If they are indeed just harassing them, if they are belittling them and bullying them because of that person’s sexual orientation or gender identity, that is also sexual harassment, and usually, that’s what we call a harassing environment case.
Jonathan: Wow. That’s heavy stuff, that’s for sure. A lot to think about. A lot of different scenarios for everyone who’s on the show and the webinar today. You really got to put that into role-playing environment. Think of your community, think of all the different potential situations and environments that your team may be faced with, and really talk through it so they’ll be able to relate to it. So simplify it, just a little bit more, Kathi. This slide really, you’re a lawyer, you’ve gone to school for all this, you deal with this every day. How can we simplify it a little bit when it comes to the legal perspective? What do we need to know?
Kathi: When these cases go to court, there are all kinds of issues with the fact and how they apply to the law. What HUD has done is created regulations to try to explain how the fact would apply to the law in housing discrimination. This is the citation to the regulations, for those of you who are keeping, for instance, a resource book on various fair housing topics. There are several points that the regulations make. One is that the decision of whether behavior rises to the level of being a violation of the law is going to depend on a lot of things. One thing it is going to depend on is how the victim interprets the behavior.
Kathi: So for instance, in the second bullet point there, what that is talking about is if I am a standoffish, reserved, timid, withdrawn person, my interpretation of flirting by a maintenance employee, or grabbing my arm or as in the scenario, even patting me on the butt, might be horrible and abusive. Those behaviors to someone else maybe wouldn’t be. But what the law says is we take the victim where that person is. We don’t make assumptions that well anyone should have known that was just a maintenance employee being flirtatious, that wasn’t really his intent to discriminate. But none of that matters. If I’m offended, if it severely upsets me, then that’s the problem under the law. That’s one thing the regulation is pointing out there.
Jonathan: Right. So take it seriously. There’s a lot of components to it, and none of them that should be… never should be ignored. I think we touch on that a little bit more in the show in just a minute when it comes to you’ve got a lot of great points coming up on how to avoid and protect ourselves. So really having a good understanding of the law is definitely a huge help. But being in a position, we’ve got the point. Don’t ignore it. It’s there, it can happen, and as a company, it’s not addressed that we have a firm stand and policies and so on, then that’s the culture that we could be brought across to our team. By extension, that touches the residents.
Kathi: Yeah. And Jonathan, flip back to the screen before. I want to make one additional point there.
Kathi: This is something for supervisors. See the second point? It’s basically saying what the regs says is just like the perpetrator of sexual harassment, if a person is in charge and could have made the harassment stop because they had the authority to do so, but failed to do so for instance because they ignore it, because they don’t want to deal with it, because they don’t know how to deal with it, that person under the fair housing act is also liable for illegal harassment. So that’s one reason supervisors have got to take this very seriously. It’s not just the perpetrator that’s going to be in trouble.
Jonathan: Right, right. Very good. So that kind of circles back to maybe other parts of training. A lot of property management companies take into account leadership training, emotional intelligence type training. Those all kind of co-relate to being able to deal with something as heavy as the topic we’re discussing today. Let’s jump the topic just for a minute, Kathi. What are some similarities that you see between sexual harassment in employment and in housing? What’s your take on that?
Sexual Harassment Similarities – Housing and Employment
Kathi: Yeah. That’s again, one of the important parts of making sure housing providers understand, that while there are differences, for instance, there are differences in laws. As an employer of a housing management company, for instance, is covered by the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, which is often called Title VII of the Civil Rights laws. So they are covered to make sure that their employees don’t discriminate. Under the Fair Housing Act, because sex is a protected category, then in a housing context no one is permitted to sexually harass another person in housing.
Kathi: So we have two different laws, but a lot of the case law, a lot of the definition is the same and housing providers are covered by both. They are covered as employers. They are covered as housing providers. Therefore, it’s kind of double… it’s doubly necessary that they address this topic, and that they address it on both levels, both as employers and as housing providers. They need a plan to avoid… how to avoid these kinds of claims from arising, and they need a plan for how to deal with them if and when they do, both on the employment context and the housing context.
Kathi: What I found is that large companies that have HR, human relations departments, are well aware of employment discrimination and sexual harassment under that. They are under the housing context. So it’s just important to remember that it could come from either side, if you will, of those companies.
Jonathan: Awesome, awesome. So for everyone on the call today, go ahead and share your comments in the chat. We love your feedback. This is some golden explanation of what we’re facing, but we’d love to hear your feedback, what you think of it so far. Again, we want to thank everyone for being here today. So that kind of like closes up this particular point, and if I can kind of close it out with how important it is that everybody knows exactly what the difference is, and what the scenarios that they may be facing.
Jonathan: Make sure that there’s something in place to handle these situations quickly, and make it part of not only your new hire orientation, but it’s something that should be discussed regularly, whether it be online training, your annual training that you do for your team, and other follow-ups. All good items to take a look at what policies and procedures manual and see does it specifically address the two different types of sexual harassment that they could be facing, and how do they relate, and what are your policies, how do they handle those particular situations.
Harassment Claims – Who Can Make Them?
Jonathan: Okay. So let’s get into our next section here. Who can make these claims? What individuals are typically involved, Kathi, in making claims against property management companies?
Kathi: So what we see in housing cases is a lot of the claims come up one of three ways. First is a resident or a resident guest accuses an employee, or sometimes a contractor of the property management company, of sexually harassing them. Another way it arises, and you know what, this is surprising how often I hear about this. I suggest a lot of training for maintenance employees. In that training, they talk to me frequently about the fact that it is the residents sometimes who are coming on to maintenance employees. So sometimes, the claims arise via an employee who is being sexually harassed by residents. Then finally, and we really need to remember this one, residents who accuse another resident of sexual harassment is something management has got to look at it, just the way they look at any other claim of sexual harassment. I’ll explain more about that in just a little bit.
Jonathan: Okay, very good. We knew this was going to be meaty stuff, and we’re running close to our 30 minutes already, but we’ll get through it. So the first best practice you refer to was to not avoid it. So second best practice we want to share with everyone is to talk about and encourage good behavior. What are your thoughts on that, Kathi?
Best Practice #2 – Encourage Good Behavior
Kathi: There are a number of ways to talk about this, and as we said, sometimes this is the awkward part is talking about it. Encouraging employees to be friendly but not friends, with residents and coworkers. Avoid engaging in the kind of behavior that we all recognize is flirtatious. Sometimes, some people think being flirtatious is somehow like being complimentary with the person that we’re flirting with. If you’re out in a bar, that might be the case. If you are working in a multi-family housing environment, an employee is flirting with the resident, that is not innocent and that could lead to these kinds of very, very difficult cases. So they just need to remember where you work is not where you find your dates. It’s not where you find your sexual partners. Go somewhere else. Likewise, avoid the kind of physical contact. The hugging, rubbing shoulders, all of that, the patting on the bottom that we talked about in the beginning. When claims arise, you’ve got to look at them, you’ve got to process them immediately.
Kathi: So when we say be friendly not friends, a little more explanation. Don’t socialize with your residents after you get off work if you work there. That’s pretty important. Sometimes, those kinds of social interaction can lead to, down the road, claims of sexual harassment. The only exception I would make to that general rule is if an employee lives where they work. If they do, I think it’s unreasonable to ask them not to socialize with their neighbors. Otherwise, I think once people are off work, they need to leave the property and not hang around and watch football games, and drink beer, and go to the pool with their residents. Likewise, it’s a good practice to avoid dating people that you work with for the reasons that we’re talking about, and under no circumstances should you get involved with either someone who is your supervisor or someone who’s your subordinate, because that is the probably biggest issue, at least under employment discrimination law.
Jonathan: Right. We’re seeing a lot of the definitions of this being addressed in different environments. Even with social networking, social media, text messages, right all of those come into play as far as the broad definition of how sexual harassment can be applied. So it’s not just something… right, Kathi? It’s not just necessarily your one on one with someone, even digital options can definitely play a role in these types of situations.
Kathi: That’s a really good point, Jonathan. A lot of cases come down to text messages. It’s shocking how many cases come down to text messages. People think they can delete them, and there are experts out there like you that can recover those deleted text messages, and those are used frequently in these kinds of cases.
Jonathan: Right. So there’s a lot that we can do to protect ourselves. You’ve heard it mentioned to everyone on the call here, boy, how important it is to make sure that we train our team and that we keep ourselves up to date with what’s going on if we’re the managers and leaders of our organization. Make sure that there’s a sexual harassment statement that is signed by all of your employees each and every year. Then, when we get into another phase of how we can protect ourselves, the opening scene that we used there, Kathi, it kind of touched on but we’ll keep this a little bit quiet. So why is that just a no no? What’s your thoughts?
Kathi: You know, I’ve had a number of cases in my career when, for whatever reason, the manager of a property agreed to keep something quiet for various reasons. Sometimes it was because the resident asked them to, because they thought it would be too embarrassing. That has always turned out to be a terrible decision. So if anyone starts a conversation, “Will you just keep this between us?” Be aware that you cannot agree to that as a housing provider employee until you’ve heard what it’s about, and if it’s about something that could be illegal, you absolutely have to report it. You cannot keep it confidential. You just need to be very clear about this.
Kathi: The other thing I would say that is really necessary, and something that a lot of companies are lacking, is it needs to be pretty well known who do I go to if I have a complaint that I think is sexual harassment. Now whether it is or not, you at that point irrelevant claim like that, and that should be clearly identified in your company because otherwise, people don’t know, and therefore sometimes don’t raise it. Both again in the employment context or in the housing context.
Jonathan: Right. Good points, good thoughts. So protect ourselves, avoid… some nice thoughts on the next couple of slides that really help us to avoid claims. Some best tips when dealing with residents. This one talks about you know the situation. This is where kind of like almost some into play. Fill out those forms. If your maintenance person, you’re going to a home of a resident and they’re not dressed properly, excuse yourself. Don’t do anything that would compromise you and your employment, or the resident. Then we get into what other items can help our audience avoid claims. What’s your thoughts when it comes to children that are home alone, and social banter that a property management professional would have with a resident? What are some tips, Kathi, that you can share?
Kathi: Again, and this is the kind of thing that some people unfortunately think it’s common sense, and it isn’t. I can tell you from training thousands and thousands of housing professionals, people have different views on this so it needs to be clearly stated that if a maintenance employee walks into an apartment, or if they’re in there working and someone walks out naked, what should they do? Don’t assume it’s clear on that. What should they do? Then, what should they do? So they should leave, obviously, right and then they should write it up. It might be an accident. Might never happen again with that resident, but if it does, the second time let’s not assume it’s an accident. From then on, that employee needs to have someone else there before they go into a unit. I’ve had too many residents who have set up an employee or set up management for these kinds of allegations by arranging to show up in their birthday suit when an employee is in their apartment. You’re not just protecting the resident. You’re protecting the employee. That should never be forgotten.
Kathi: Going into an apartment when a child is home alone is very dangerous. Again, we’re not just trying to protect the children. We’re trying to protect the employees. Even if the parents say, “Oh, go ahead. It’s okay. My son is there. I’m not home from work. Go ahead and go in and do the work.” There needs to be a process where either you don’t go in and you reschedule, or you have another employee with you so it is not one employee and one or more children underage in the apartment at the same time.
Kathi: Then of course, again, maybe what should be common sense, you can’t assume that when you are joking around the property, in the elevator, in the parking lot, that is not going to be overheard by someone, and unfortunately it often is. When people are on the job, they need to just avoid that kind of behavior, and they should be reminded that they need to do that.
Jonathan: Right, yeah. Excellent tips. I’m glad you brought that up. Sometimes everyone’s version of common sense is a little bit different, so as leaders that’s a great summary. Don’t assume that common sense is just a common thread amongst all of our team. We need to make sure that things are clearly identified. So powerful point. At the same time, we can’t forget certain things. So we don’t want to differentiate between a potential claim by a resident versus someone who works with us. Right, Kathi? We need to document everything. Everything has to be the exact same policy when it comes to how things are investigated and cared for. You can’t weigh one higher than the other, correct?
Kathi: Absolutely. Just don’t forget if a resident comes in complaining about another resident’s sexual behavior, that should be treated exactly like any other sexual harassment claim. Housing management likes to step away from those because they’re awkward, and who knows who said what to whom, but it is still a claim that has to be investigated. It has to be documented and a full and fair investigation needs to occur, regardless of what we call the perpetrator. Who that perpetrator is is not as important as how it is handled once the notification is made to property management.
Jonathan: Right. Very good. So we’re really going overtime, Kathi, so I just want to share something with the audience real quick. Wanted to cover one other main point, and then take a couple questions. This is going to be available on our website, some of these points that are on the next couple of slides about handling claims. Great bullet point. Maybe you’re taking a picture right now, but we know you guys have a schedule that you’re trying to. We want to get to our final main point today and you can summarize this section for us, Kathi, and we know that some of these other slides will be helpful to all of our even after our session today. So illegal harassment due to the other protect categories. Take it away. Sum it up. What does that mean?
Illegal Harassment Due to Other Protected Categories
Kathi: Okay. So just like sex is a protected category, so is race, color, national origin, religion, familial status, and disability, and of course sex. Just like sex, all of those people with all of those various protected categories are protected under the Fair Housing Act from being harassed because of their protected category. If something like that arises in your property, and if it is made known to any employee, and I do mean any employee of the property, the property is legally obligated to follow the kind of procedures we’ve been talking about. Don’t avoid it. Look into it. Investigate it. Find out what you can find out. Document that you looked into it, and then make a determination.
Kathi: Sometimes, you cannot decide whether it occurred or not. That is a determination. Don’t avoid making that, because sometimes even after you don’t know whether it occurred or not, but that in itself is both a decision and will mitigate damages if that resident turns around and sues you because you didn’t make what that person is claiming is illegal harassment stop. Your obligation is to do your best to look into it, and take appropriate action once you do. It is not good enough to say, “Call the police.” Please understand that. It’s fine if you want to tell residents that, but that in no way alleviates your obligation to make illegal harassment stop if it’s going on in your property. Just remember that contractors are also covered by all this, so their harassment, if it occurs, it can be imputed to you as the management company because you brought them onto the property. So you’re always responsible for their behavior.
Jonathan: Well that’s awesome. It sounds like even this one sub-topic, we can probably do a whole webinar just on that. There’s a lot of material, but maybe we’ll get this on a future webinar where we can go into this in a little bit more detail. So great. Wow, great show Kathi. I learned a lot again, and you and I have been talking about this, getting ready for this webinar, for months going over this material. You have reviews on our Facebook page, on our Google. On Google, you can give us a review or email us, chat us, whatever. We’d love to hear your feedback on how valuable you find these sessions.
Jonathan: To kind of wrap it up, I think this is what we put together Kathi is some tips and a nice summary. Don’t ignore it, train your people. Make sure they know how to report claims. Take everything seriously and make sure that you investigation diligence. So one of those things well, why do we go through fire drills if. Kathi, any concluding thoughts, statements, to our audience today?
Kathi: No, I don’t think so. I hope you recognize this is a complex issue. I guess we didn’t quite make it, but the reason we have ongoing training is so that we can address the various details in the next training we do. I hope you’ll feel free to ask your questions. Jonathan, are we going to have time for any questions, because I know we’re running overtime.
Jonathan: So I’ve got a couple here, and again, for those who need to jump off the call, thank you. Kathi and I, and the team we really, really appreciate you taking time out of your day to be with us because it shows how important this topic is to you as it is to us, to make sure we provide education, and again we appreciate all those who are customers. If you’re not right now, if you’re interested in online courses, please visit FairHousingInstitue.com. So here’s a couple of questions that came in. The first one is going to take me a minute to read it. What’s your recommendation when the accounts of the two parties and the recent complaint are significantly different? There are no witnesses and the accused had a minor and unsubstantiated complaint about him nearly three years earlier. Does this warrant the dismissal requested by the complainant? That’s a long question. I don’t know if you want to answer that one today, or you want to answer that in the blog.
Kathi: I would just say that the very fact that there was a prior complaint concerns me, and should concern you from the possibility… the chances of liability. You just have to do your best. Don’t forget to ask the other employees. Sometimes, they have information that they aren’t… they don’t come forward with unless you step down and talk to them. Make sure no one has additional information. Sometimes you have to pull that out of them if they’re not willing because they don’t want to get in the middle of something. So if you’ve done all that, then all you can do is explain your determination in writing to the claimant, and tell them you’re going to keep your eyes open, and that the claimant should come back to you if there is any further problems. That’s the best you can do sometimes.
Jonathan: Yeah, very good. Okay. See one or two others here, Kathi. What is this one? Oh. How does one file a complaint if they are not the manager of a property? Thank you, Karen, for the question.
Kathi: That goes to the issue that all companies need to have a procedure and a person that everyone knows to go to, and a secondary person in case the person who’s being accused is that named person. So everybody needs to know where to go. Do they go to HR? Do they go to the property manager? Do they go to the regional? That needs to be made clear, and it sounds like in your situation, it is not clear and that’s unfortunate, and maybe that’s an issue that should be raised with whoever is at the very top of your company.
Jonathan: Right, okay. Very good, thank you. Then the last one. Explain the difference between sexual harassment and creating a hostile environment.
Kathi: Well, sexual harassment can be a hostile environment. Just be aware of that. That’s one of the definitions. So you can have a hostile environment that occurs because of sexual conduct and comments, and pictures, and texts. Or you can have a hostile environment caused by racial harassment, for instance. Both are illegal under the Fair Housing Act.
Jonathan: Very good. Okay, and I think one more just came in. Let’s see if I can read this one. Got to put my glasses on, Kathi. What if a resident comes outside with no shirt on a regular basis? I’ve asked him to please put on a shirt. Take offense to this, and also sounds like also some of the residents take offense.
Kathi: You know what, that’s a tough one because as we know, men frequently go shirtless and that’s not uncommon, and I don’t think that’s viewed in general as inappropriate dress for men, and that’s very different for women. But if you have house rules that describe appropriate dress in common areas, and you, in those rules, state that going shirtless whether you’re a male or a female, is inappropriate, then that would be something that you could enforce. I think that would have to be a written rule, however, before it’s something you can enforce.
Jonathan: All right. Good. One more, and then we’re going to close it off for today. Again, need to get my glasses. So what do you do about postmen and UPS workers who sexually harass you? It took me a minute to read the question. I guess that question is having to do with people who are outside our residents and outside of the staff of the property management company. The question is what’s the best procedure?
Kathi: Yeah. I don’t think there is a formal procedure, but I think that’s the kind of thing that should be raised with the company, either the US Post Office service, the UPS service, and the best way to get their customer service people is online. The more specific the information that you can give the, the better. I assure you that if you make those… if you use the name of the person, the address that the person is serving, I strongly believe that those companies are going to get that person and talk to them. I would address it with the corporation customer service online, who you can reach via the computer.
Jonathan: Right. Okay. Well, fantastic Kathi. Thank you again. Always fun taking on these webinars. Our second episode and we had well over 300 people today so that’s awesome and fantastic, how many who are just loving this education. Great feedback and great questions. Just to kind of wrap it up, there will be a blog post with the recorded version and more than likely a transcript of the call today, the episode. You can go back on if you weren’t able to take enough notes, so just be on the lookout for your email, for a link that will take you to that post.
Jonathan: Again, thank you, everyone, for being here today. We’ll have another webinar coming up in a couple months so we’ll announce that soon. Kathi, we had a great time and we look forward to our next episode of the Fair Housing Institute providing education. All right, everyone, have a great afternoon and have a great week.